Slippery Slope Speculating

Hosea today

2009-11-23T11:10:00.000-08:00

I read Hosea last night. VERY interesting book. I was particularly struck by the prophet calling out the priests and leaders for their complicity in leading their people away from God into spiritual whoredom. How the priests had decided that their war machines could protect them better than God. How they thought that their ways were better than what God had taught them.

I thought about how the "christian" leaders with the biggest voices tend to teach that war against the infidel is holy and that their way is the only way to God even though they ignore so much of what I read in Scripture. One verse talked about how self-satisfied the priests were with their performance ( my interpretation, not the words used ) and how much God loathed what they were doing. Another place talked about offerings that just meant the priests ate. Humpf. Sounds like name-it-and-claim-it people who coerce people into giving all they have so they can live well but the people can't pay their bills.

I combined that reading with something I heard in a sermon ( 87% of people 18-35 hear the word "christian" and think "self-righteous" ) and was concerned with how much of a role I've played in being one of those priests who thinks they're pleasing God but isn't living out God's teachings. Not that I'm a priest, but still...

The ones who are teaching things that sit well in my soul are mostly those who are looked at as not being theologically correct enough by the priests and leaders of our day. Yet they are the ones I hear teaching what I'm reading in Scripture.

I think I'll go with the ones thought to be on the edge of orthodoxy and ignore the ones who are loud and consider themselves "right".

Appropriate prayer places

2009-07-10T08:19:00.000-07:00

I believe in prayer. Absolutely! I even believe in rebuking demons. Truly! But there's a time and a place for it. In the middle of the hallway in a psych unit is not one of them. Well-intentioned, of course, but totally inappropriate.

When are Christian leaders and teachers going to explain to their followers proper behavior? Things like doing things in proper order (like knowing the person before deciding all of their problems are demonic) and in the proper place (in a quiet place without an audience). Perhaps ensuring that the people putting what they're being taught into practice actually have good motives.

One of the lessons I learned when I was busy doing deliverance ministry was that I often operated more out of a need to feel in control of something than for the well-being of another person. Not all the time. And there was always an underlying concern for the other person. But, after watching a totally inappropriate situation this week, I had an "aha!" moment and realized it was all about feeling powerless and trying to find some power. If you can just command demons to leave a sick person, then you have power. When your loved one is making bad decisions and ends up with some physically based mental health issues, you want to make them better right away. YOU want to be the one to help them heal. So you grab your God-gun and start shooting. Unfortunately it often just makes things worse.

It's time that Christians stop to think and pray before going off half-cocked and afraid.

Heresy

2009-05-14T21:22:00.000-07:00

What exactly *is* heresy?

I've been called a heretic. I laughed because I know I am far from being heretical. I'm far too "into" God to be a heretic. Are heretics constantly listening for God's voice? Studying the Bible or reading books about the Bible or listening to podcasts about the Bible? Maybe. Maybe I really am a heretic. But I don't think so.

I was reading about someone who has been called a heretic. Nothing I have heard or read about him jived with the "heretic" label for me. The person who started the whole "he's a heretic!" blather comes across, to me, as more than a little skewed. Not sure he's a heretic but he's not completely orthodox in his behavior.

I tend to look at the fruit I see in a person. What is their behavior? Is it consistent with what they say they believe? No one is 100% consistent, but generally.... Do they show God's love toward others, particularly those they don't like? Not just the fake-y "christian" *love* that they're supposed to show but the real, gut-level, here's-the-rent-cuz-you-need-it-don't-tell-anyone-where-you-got-it kind of love?

Some of the people who are currently being labelled as "heretics" tend to be the ones that I find the most real. Weird. As I read and pray and ponder, I begin to wonder if the heretics aren't closer to God than the "orthodox" preachers who are lambasting them.

Maybe heresy isn't all that bad, depending on who is doing the labeling.

Natural Submissives

2009-03-30T12:54:00.001-07:00

Some people are naturally giving, submissive people. It is imperative that people around them remain vigilant in being aware of how you treat them, This is especially true in churches where it's so easy to overwhelm a naturally submissive person into doing the grunt work of the church. If there are one or two people in the church doing a lot of the work, there is something sick and silently abusive in that church. (Naturally giving and submissive people are not necessarily meek and quiet. We can be quite rambunctious! ) Jesus was a giving, submissive person who stood up for himself when it was appropriate (ie clearing the moneychangers) or submitting to the needs of the world (ie the Cross). Naturally submissive people are good at the submitting to the needs of the world while totally ignoring their own needs. They often need help emulating Jesus' ability to stand up for Himself and protect Himself. They need to be allowed to say "no" and not be coerced into doing more stuff.

I think church pastors and elders need to be particularly aware of natural submissives in their congregations, adult and children. Some adults are in excellent marriages with partners who work hard to help them find their "no" and own it. Those submissives are people that are a joy to watch. Some have been snatched up by abusers who have the form of "good Christians" and are being quietly and systematically used in abusive ways. Just because someone (male or female) seems like a wonderful person does not mean that they are not abusive to those with a bent toward submission. It's important that people in the church be aware of the undertones to personal interactions between spouses, families, and church workers.

Natural submissives often love God very deeply. It is natural for us to be willing to do whatever the Lord wants us to do. We can be very wise and knowledgable, or not. We are not stupid. We have a blind spot that we need help seeing, just as every person in the Body of Christ has their own blind spots where they need loving brothers and sisters to help them be aware of when they are going too far in one direction. For far too long the church has turned a blind eye to natural submissives' blind spot and allowed us to be abused. Some in the church have made natural submissives into martyrs rather than realize that their "martyrdom" is actually sin that needs to be confronted not exploited.

It's taken me a long time to realize my nature and come to grips with how to deal in healthy ways in relationships, including churches. I've spent the last 6+ years not being involved in church work at all because I know it's dangerous for me. It's not wrong for me to be submissive. I'm also not some extra-holy saint because I am. Just as people with the gift of mercy need to be aware of the negative ways that trait can be used or those with the gift of administration can unknowingly twist it into negative behaviors, I have a gift that has negative consequences if I'm not careful, aware, and always listening to God's voice rather than the voices of the people around me.

Being a naturally submissive person is not a spiritual gift. It is a natural characteristic of who a person is. My spiritual gifts are not mercy and helps and service. Those are natural characteristics of my personality. My spiritual gifts cluster around the “pastoral” gifts: preaching, teaching, exhortation, wisdom, knowledge. A natural submissive, given the proper boundaries and channeling their submissive personality correctly, could be an excellent pastor. There are some hurdles that a naturally dominant person wouldn’t have to deal with, but they’ve got other issues they need to deal with if they’re a pastor.

It is easy for me to fall into my natural self and submit to the physical needs of a church family. I’m in heaven if I get to cook huge meals to feed a lot of people. Churches who know that are apt to pigeon hole me into “kitchen work” and not bother to realize that my staying in that position is actually sinful for me. To do so occasionally, is fine, but it’s indulging my natural self and not using my spiritual gifts. To push myself into doing what God has called me to do, would be the correct thing to do. But it doesn’t fit many churches view of what a woman should do so they don’t bother to discover who I am in Christ’s Kingdom.

What is really sad about all of that is that there may be many other people in the church who are indulging their natural inclinations rather than doing the work the Lord has called them to do in the Body of Christ. What if someone is naturally dominant and is leading education classes when what they are actually called to do is be a greeter? How differently could the Body of Christ be affected if they were properly using their spiritual gifts? There are spiritual lessons that they are not learning, that may be very important for their spiritual development, because they’ve gone with their natural giftings rather than the spiritual gifts God gave them.

It is especially important that adults be aware of the natural inclinations of children. Naturally submissive children are easy prey for predators and abusers. Giving them the tools they need to be self-protective is important to help prevent their abuse. Naturally dominant children can easily become bullies and abusers, if they are not re-directed into other avenues of behavior. They need a different set of tools. What a blessing if the adults in a child’s life understand who each child is and helps them, individually, to become a healthy, happy adult able to connect safely with their world.

Submission not Coercion

2009-03-30T12:31:00.000-07:00

A friend posed a question about what I'd be interested in a pastor knowing about abuse and what I'd want to hear in a sermon. These are the immediate thoughts I had:

IMO authority figures need to be particularly careful when they are using their authority. That's why police and medical personnel and religious leaders and teachers are held to higher standards when they are interacting with others "under" them within their working environment. No one has the right to coerce another into doing what they want them to do. If they are coercing someone then that person is not really submitting to them, they are doing what they are doing to protect themselves from some type of harm. If someone who is in authority realizes that is what is happening they need to immediately stop, apologize to the person they were coercing, and *change their behavior*. Even if it means the church elders or pastor needs to apologize to the church for coercing them into faith promises or other financial giving by preying on their emotions!

I've learned to submit to someone's NEED rather than their want. If I'd understood the concept works for husbands as well as children (not saying husbands are children though) I'd probably have stayed with my husband until his death. Abusers need someone to stand up to them and say "NO! You cannot do that to me." It is only when they are faced with someone who can call them on their abusive behavior that they will back down. Just because someone has authority over another person does NOT give them the right to get whatever they want, whenever they want.

Unless submission is voluntary, it is not submission. Jesus does not coerce any of us into doing the Lord's will. If we are to be accurate reflections of Jesus, true Christians, we should not be coercing anyone into doing what we want. We need to reflect a God who loves and protects. God is not like the abusive parent, spouse, teacher, boss, Sunday School teacher, evangelist, or politician. God loves and gives willingly to us. God can be trusted because the LORD does not abuse us...ever.

The Shack

2009-03-12T15:27:00.000-07:00

I've been thinking about this book and doing a lot of wondering. What if God truly loves each of us individually? What if that person that irritates me so much is just as beloved of God as I am? Do I have a right to disparage or denigrate that person?

What if the person who abuses another is trying to deal with issues from their past and have no other way in their "box of tricks" to get help? What if that abuse is actually a subconscious call for help? They are just as much the beloved of God as I am, so who am I to get up in arms over their behavior? Doesn't mean that they were right to do what they did or that they shouldn't face consequences but is it appropriate for me to get emotionally involved in lambasting their behavior? Can I take some time to see the person that God loves within that person?

What if the Beloved of God, say, one of my pagan friends, has been so badly mangled by "the church" that they've rejected "god" and gone looking for a Diety that loves and accepts them? What if the way that I've projected Christ to them doesn't help them get over the mangling they've experienced and what they find is more loving and accepting than the way I've treated them? Which "god" is more in line with our Loving God, their's or what I've portrayed?

What would happen if people would start seeing others around them as the Beloved of God and treating them as God would treat the Beloved? What if that happened in churches, workplaces, out shopping, on the roadways, in schools? What if Christians would treat non-Christians as the Beloved of God? Maybe people would be interested in the God that we talk about?

Just turning thoughts over in my mind...

Judging

2009-03-03T18:21:00.000-08:00

I now drive 1 hour to and then from work. On those drives home at midnight I listen to sermons on the iPod my kids gave me for Christmas so I'd have music with me. It helps me stay awake and provides another person with me, sort of.

One of the sermons I listened to this past week was about the speck and the log. The pastor's interpretation was very interesting because I hadn't heard it explained in quite the way he was explaining it, though it made more sense then most. While I may mangle what he said, I'm going to try to write out what he said, in brief. (It was a 45+ minute sermon. Hard to do quickly!)

First off, he pointed out that whomever is doing the judging is coming from a position of having a HUGE log in their own eye. It reminded me of the story of the woman who was taken in adultery and Jesus saying "whoever is without sin, cast the first stone." No matter how bad we think the other person's sin is, what we've got in our own life is 1000's of times greater than what we see in their life. Looking at our own life and our own sin is much more difficult than looking into other people's lives and pointing out the sins we see there.

Second. The pastor said that the only people who have a right to point out sin in another's life are ones who are in a committed relationship with that person. Not marriage necessarily but in small accountability groups that have been together for a long time, know each other very well, and *have agreed to being open to being corrected by other group members.* If you're judging someone who has not agreed to let you judge them, then you're out of line. The churches of the early church were very small groups where they knew each other intimately so they could easily do this within their groups. That is not so true today in our large churches. And on an on-line group we don't really know the "real" person well enough to make judgement calls because we don't know the whole person, just what pixels we see on our computer screen. That may not be the real person at all.

Third. Any judgements must be made out of pure love. No retaliation. No fear. No self-righteousness. Just humble love for the other person. I know very few Christians who aren't filled with self-righteousness masquerading as humble caring. Actually most people are so full of greed to know the dirt on other people to make themselves feel better about their own sins that they eagerly listen to all kinds of gossip in the form of "sharing about a brother/sister. "

From me: While I've put my own impressions in the 3 points, this is purely from me. I don't like being judged but I used to be very judgemental. When I realized what I thought was Godly love was really my fear coming out self-righteously, I made a conscious effort to quit judging. There is only one person on this earth that I feel I know well enough to judge, my best friend of 20+ years, and I almost never judge her. I've learned to trust the Holy Spirit to deal with any of her issues that bother me. And you know? God is good to deal with her issues as long as I keep my mouth toward her off of them.

If I'm seeing sin in another's life, I've learned to look at myself. Generally I'm judging that other person because I feel crappy about sin in my life that I want to ignore. When I learned that my judging others was a way to cover up my need to do my own self-examination I pretty quickly quit finding fault in another. Frankly, I'm usually too busy doing my own self-examination to do any nit-picking in others now.

Jesus said not to throw stones if you have sin in your own life. He also said to deal with your log before dealing with their specks. To me this message is one of the clearest in the Bible. Take care of your own sin before dealing with anyone else's because anyone who says they are without sin is a liar.
I spend my time judging myself and my own life. I allow God to be God and deal with other people. It's amazing how much brighter and positive the world is now that I'm not acting like I am God's assistant Holy Spirit.

Fear

2008-11-06T05:43:00.000-08:00

Sometimes I think churches and christians thrive on fear. It doesn't matter that the Bible promises "perfect peace". Fear keeps people motivated to follow the rules of the group they are part of so the group continues to find ways to incite fear in it's followers.

This election had a lot of that. Fear that McCain would push the country into another world war. Fear that Obama was the anti-christ. How much validity is there to either claim? Not much. But say it loud enough, attach some vague Bible passages to your ranting, and say it often enough and people will equate the person with what you are saying and fear their election.

But it's not just about elections. People can fear that if they go to a particular theme park they will be supporting evil. They can fear that if they listen to particular music the devil will take over their soul. They can fear that certain books or types of entertainment will make them unclean. Fear, fear, fear.

What's really sad is that God doesn't control through fear. It's just some people who purport to show people God that try to. Unfortunately sometimes they're the only "God" that is seen.

God's Will

2008-11-05T07:00:00.000-08:00

Churches give lip service to wanting God's will. With this election some are now saying "God is still in control" as though they need to be reminded of that. Maybe it's time to truly believe that God *is* in control and that the results of the elections, whether they are what you personally would prefer or not, are exactly what God has willed for us. We don't have to understand God's will; we just have to accept it.

True acceptance of God's will means not working against it. That means no preaching about how awful the world has suddenly become. No preaching about how the anti-christ is now walking in the White House. No preaching about how quickly the end of the world is coming "just look around you." It does mean praying that the Lord will use the Servant God has chosen to lead the country. It means allowing God to do whatever is best for this country without complaining because the Lord chose something different than what you thought was best. Amazing how we think we know better than God!! What arrogance!

Transparency

2008-10-12T08:34:00.001-07:00

There is within people the need to belong. There is also a need to be known completely. Many people join religious organizations so they "belong". Religious organizations would seem like a safe place to not only belong but also to be known. But they aren't always.

Lately I've been spending time in groups where one can belong AND be transparent without fear of reprisals. What is said or done in those groups is kept private. Everyone involved knows that it is safe to voice their issues without worrying about being judged or condemned. To me, that is what church should be like.

Unfortunately I grew up in churches and learned very early on that there was no privacy and a LOT of judgement if anyone broke down and confessed who and what they really were. I listened to the snipping and snipe-ing that went on. The "prayer requests" that were obviously a way to righteously gossip about someone else's ills. I learned not to be real at church but to put on a pretty face, proper behavior, and get along with other people's facades.

I wonder sometimes what Jesus would do in those kinds of churches. He obviously already knew each person's foibles and weaknesses yet accepted each person as a valued child of God. Jesus tended to get angry at those would would make being accepted, known, and belong difficult for people who were honest about their need. So, it makes me wonder how Jesus would act toward the pew people in churches and the leadership in those churches. It's scary to consider.

Submit

2008-10-07T13:13:00.000-07:00

I've been thinking about all the churches who have problems with dissention in their midst. (And every church I know of has that kind of problem to one degree or another.) What would happen if pastors started teaching Ephesians 5:21-22 from a different angle?

Ephesians 5:21 says, depending on your translation, "Submit yourselves one to another". It's obviously intended for the church at large so if we tie verse 22 into it "Wives, to your husbands" then you've got church people submitting to one another the way they believe wives should submit to their husbands.

If the church is egalitarian then it will remind them that their submission does not mean that they get to do whatever they want all of the time. They need to find a way to mutually agree on answers and decisions.

If the church believes that women are to be silent in church and obey men, then they've got a whole new way to look at how they treat other church members and their spouses. After all, if the women in the church believe that they should be obeying their husbands, then how can they insist on their own way within the church at large? And if the men believe that women are to always submit to men, then what happens when they find themselves in a "female" position of submitting to someone the way a wife would to her husband?

'Course this also opens things up to even more manipulation within the church since so many women in patriarchal systems manipulate the heck out of their husbands to get their own way rather than just stating it clearly and logically discussing it. Now you could end up with a whole church of people manipulating everyone else to the point of being so dysfunctional that it falls apart and has a church divorce.

But just pointing this out (the church divorce stuff) could be the clue-by-four a church body might need to get the idea of submitting to one another. Maybe.

It could make for an interesting sermon though.

"Please open your Bibles to Ephesians 5. This morning we are going to examine verses 21 and 22.

It is obvious that verse 21 is talking about the church body's attitude toward one another. Each person in the congregation is to submit themselves to one another. How do we do this? Paul provides an example in verse 22 when he tells us to look at how a wife submits to her husband. It's obvious that all church members should model their submission to each other on how a wife is to submit to her hubby.

How do wives submit to their husbands? Whose wants and needs does she put first? What does a husband expect from his wife's submission? These are the things that we are all called to do for one another within this church body.

Men, this may be uncomfortable but it's like being the Bride of Christ. Jesus calls us to uncomfortable places of humility as we become more like Christ. It is as we work to understand the submission we are to have toward one another that we most exemplify Christ's foot washing with the disciples."

Shoot. Might be a good sermon in an egal church too, especially one with in-fighting and back-stabbing. IS this the way Christians should act toward one another? Of course not! We're to be known by our love for one another. Love is shown by putting another's wants ahead of our own and doing our best to ensure that their needs are met to the best of our ability while they work to meet our needs and put our wants ahead of their own. If everyone in the church did that, then there would be more real Christian love and concern expressed, felt, and experienced. Church squabbles would be minor and easily resolved. So would issues within marriages. Open, honest communication and a willingness to defer our wants to meeting another's needs.

So, come on churches!! Lets all act like the submissive women Paul has called us to be!

Magical thinking

2008-09-29T05:56:00.000-07:00

Recently I became aware of a therapist saying that my generation indulges in "magical thinking" too much. I've been mulling that over since hearing it wondering how that could have started. As I reviewed the entertainment of my childhood (Disney movies, Bewitched, etc) I could see where magical thinking could come from, in part. Then I started thinking beyond the "world's" influence and looked at the religious teaching I grew up with. Wow! Talk about magical thinking!!

I grew up Pentecostal. I have talked to enough people who grew up in non-Pentecostal (OMG I *hate* Pentecostals churches included) to have realize that they were taught some, though not all, of what I was taught as a kid.

While people like to quote the phrase "God helps those who help themselves" it is NOT a Bible verse. It would be nice if it *were* a Bible verse given the way some people are so God-dependent that they can't dress without Divine Intervention.

The stories I heard growing up were about how God miraculously healed people, gave people money in just the nick of time to keep them from foreclosure, provided groceries when they had nothing to eat, etc, etc, etc. I believe God is perfectly able to supply one's needs and heal people but is this something we should depend on?

I can remember being told that God would do whatever we asked if we just "believed" enough. It didn't seem to matter what it was, God would do it if we just said the right words and did the right things. The "name it and claim it" folks were alive, well, and preaching when I was young long before the newest batch of them started preaching.

There were times I'd go to bed at night, lay in bed and pray God would make me magically lose weight until I was Twiggy thin so I could be more popular. Forget genetics. God could change my genes to make it work. Forget looking at the reality of me and realize I wasn't fat, just built larger than others. (Now is a different story.)

Being told over and over that God would supply our needs sounded lovely until I grew up some and started looking at history. Did all of the Christians murdered in the Nazi camps sin so badly that God wanted to punish them? If God supplied all our needs, wouldn't a loving Lord have rescued those people from the death camps? Whatever happened to the God who saved the 3 Hebrew children and Daniel from the fiery furnace?

If God can heal us, then why isn't everyone alive and well? It seems like no church worth it's salt should have any members who get sick and stay sick. If you want to be healed of MS or diabetes or cancer, just go to church, live the life God wants you to, get prayed for, and you should be able to quit all your meds and go on about your life as though you were never sick because, obviously, God should heal you!

But life isn't like that. People get sick and die no matter how much the people here don't want them to and pray that God will intervene. People work hard to do the right thing yet their jobs disappear, their mortgage becomes too much and they default (or are foreclosed on), medical bills mount up and they can't pay them, feeding their kids becomes nearly impossible, life gets too hard to continue. Does God care about those situations?

I know what I believe about it. I think it's time for churches to stop promising things they cannot deliver. Part of those sermons and Sunday School classes from my childhood stick like they do because I hear the same messages coming from various preachers even today. Be honest people! Tell people the truth about what God *might* do for them but don't promise that the Lord absolutely will.

10 Commandments

2008-09-24T20:36:00.001-07:00

I really like the 10 Commandments. They're pretty simple and straightforward. Can't really quibble with them because they make a lot of sense for inter-personal interactions. I like the logic.

So, why is there a question about homosexuality? I get that there are other passages that teach against it but those passages aren't as clear-cut for me as they seem to be for many other people. I don't see anything in the 10 Commandments about homosexuality. Not saying it's right just wondering about it. Anyone want to give me good, clear-cut Bible reasons to be anti-gay? It doesn't have to be join the Phelps campaign reasoning (I don't think they reason anything) but it would be nice to see something truly clear-cut about it.

See? Slippery Slope Speculating is a good title.

Church

2008-09-24T07:09:00.000-07:00

What is church? Is it a building? I was taught that the building isn't important, yet I've gone into church buildings that had a holy feel to them. Somehow the building itself seemed very, very 'church' like.

Is church a particular set of rituals and words said in a particular sequence? I know people who don't feel they've been to church without specific things happening.

Is it a group of people who meet together and call themselves a church? Maybe. What does their church consist of?

What makes something church?

As I was reminded yesterday, the Bible says that we are not to "forsake the gathering together". I'm just not clear on what that means. I know that I miss being with others in a "church" but I'm having trouble figuring out what that means to me.

Odd questions

2008-09-24T07:04:00.000-07:00

I tend to have these very odd theological questions tumbling around in my head. I figure I can't be the only one with these questions so this place is where I am going to post them and see what kinds of answers I get.